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Speaker: [00:00:00] Welcome to Stories That Stick with me, Laura, as your resident storyteller. I'm here to show you how oral stories inspire and captivate minds young and old. Tune in each week to hear a compelling story and join in meaningful conversations. I'll be digging deep into the heart of storytelling, connection, and listening.
So whether you're a kid, teacher, caregiver, grandparent, or simply a lover of stories, this podcast is for you. Join me as you get lost in another world and discover how stories shape our lives. Here's to the next page in our story
Welcome to the second episode of season three Stories That Stick. I have today Cathy Belgrave with me, and we're gonna be chatting all about stories, which I haven't had an episode [00:01:00] dedicated just to this in a while, so I'm super excited. And I'm glad to have you here, and I'd love to hear a little bit about you, Cathy, and what's brought you to the work that you're doing now
Cathy: Okay.
Thanks so much, Laura, and so nice to see you again. Yes, so yeah, I'm Cathy Belgrave. I'm up here in Canada and I'm an educator, a workshop facilitator for preschool and elementary children, and then I'm also running my own programs. I run some preschool programs, creative play, and art programs, and then also it's called Junior Author and Artist Studio, and that's for school-age children.
And so the focus on all of those are how do we be together, how do we share our human experiences together how do we play all these different ways we [00:02:00] communicate. How do we tell stories together? And so I came to this just lots of experience, both positive and not so positive- ... of, starting off eh, with a developmental psychology degree to getting my teaching degree to working in an elementary school and bumping up against limitations of a system to then working on my own and really then starting on a path of what do I actually believe about children and learning and my own role as an educator, and then just playing with those ideas, taking more courses, et cetera, et cetera.
And so landing where I am today on having way more clarity of who I am as an educator and what my overall goal f- for children is. Mm-hmm.
Laura: Which is what?
Cathy: Yeah, which is how to [00:03:00] support them understanding who they are as humans so they have the confidence to be out in the world authentically.
Having, experienced my own education system where it was very traditional, and so you learnt how to be or not to be able to make your way through the system, and so that does damage to people and it, can really shake one's confidence, which is what happened to me.
Very unsure, and you look outside of yourself to, okay, what are other people doing? How should I be? And then picking one of those. And so really having this kind of- At some level disconnect with yourself. And working on that personally and then also not wanting to have other children experiencing that has really helped me develop my practice.
And I have to say, it's ongoing. It's feels, it's never finished. It-
Laura: No.
Cathy: Yeah. There's no end. There's always a new thing to [00:04:00] consider or a new article to read or something, and say the stories. Yeah. Talking about stories. Mm-hmm. When I first started in education- it was, it was the book you read.
That was the story. And it took some time to unpack that to what else is it?
Laura: Mm-hmm. So- Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think what you're speaking to so much is this idea of that we all really, that have been in that traditional education system, have experienced some type of trauma in some way, right?
Mm-hmm. And for me, the way it really shows up is in my perfectionism and my desire for outside validation, right? Mm-hmm. And this, somebody to tell me I'm doing the right thing or the good job, which is extremely challenging when you're an entrepreneur- Yeah ... and building out your own business or exploring ways to support children in a less traditional way, because you're not [00:05:00] necessarily having anybody tell you these things that were used to getting, a check mark, and, the worksheets
Cathy: yeah.
Laura: And I think that's really important work to be doing. And I bet what my guess is that as you get work with the school-age children, the children that are a bit older, you're seeing that light dimmed a little bit more and a little bit more support that they need and- Yes
understanding themselves and being confident and mm-
Cathy: Yes. Yes. Definitely. They often come in waiting. Waiting for direction or waiting for permission. Even- Mm-hmm ... simple things like art materials. We're doing art together and asking, "Is it okay if I use this brush?" When the brush is actually sitting as part of the invitation.
Things like that. But it- it's- Mm-hmm ... I would say super informative because it then tells me, okay, where are things at for this individual, but also this particular group? Mm-hmm. And how am I taking [00:06:00] that forward? I think of my cur- one of my current groups, and we're doing art journals-
As a way in and using a variety of prompts, inviting them to journal for themselves. They don't have to share any of their writing with me. But then helping them, like, how do I pick out key words? W- what are the important pieces to what I've just written.
Laura: Yeah.
Cathy: And then what do I wanna do with that? How do I wanna express that on my art page?
And then do I wanna put some of those keywords on my page? Do I wanna write a poem? And I'm a big fan of free verse- Ooh ... 'cause you kinda- Yeah ... very few rules. Yeah. Let's just write what you think and what you want. Also haiku, 'cause there's some, rhythm and syllables that have to go with that, so there's a little bit of play- Yeah
that one has to do with that to get it how they want. And with free verse too, really, playing [00:07:00] around. Mm-hmm. So yeah. And I think of all of it as, All of it is stories. Yeah. And when I think of stories, all of that is communication. How are we communicating? There, it's always through stories.
Laura: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. It absolutely is. And I think I often find, myself just going through this journey that I'm on in, pulling my children from public school and constantly learning and unlearning and de-schooling and making sense of, what, who I am. Because for so long I identified as a teacher, and my perception of a teacher was then very different than what it continues to be now.
And like you said, we're lifelong learners though, right? Mm-hmm. And as an educator, we are constantly, yeah, seeking out understanding other people, and sharing with other people our own understandings and experiences all through, like you said through, through story. Mm-hmm. So I'd love to just [00:08:00] hear from you, what it is that, you think constitutes a story- whether it be from adults or from children.
Cathy: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I first started expanding my notion of story when I was doing one of my practicums in my teacher education. And the school had a guest come in and a Canadian writer and teacher, and he did a whole thing around fairy tales, and associated with that, talking about how as humans we're social beings and we connect to each other through story.
And so over the years I've really played with that. And so for me, story is a really important part of how we connect as humans. It's the conversations children have with us and each other. [00:09:00] It's the conversations we have in the workplace when we ask someone, "How was your weekend?" And then they tell you their story of the- Mm-hmm
highlights or the important things. It's a way we connect and learn about each other. And so I think in the context of children, similar ways. There's just such a vast way, so many ways we communicate with each other. If stories are communication, then how are all these ways we communicate? And so conversation- Play, when children are playing.
Observing their play, what are they playing? And looking at the stories within that. And so sometimes it's not on the surface. I think of this one example of a group I had where they really brought the block [00:10:00] area and the kitchen area together and created a home.
And they had rotating sh- shape-shifting roles, really.
Laura: Yep.
Cathy: What they were at any moment. And so at the surface oh, they're, like, playing so-called house.
Laura: Mm-hmm.
Cathy: But watching over time and looking a little bit deeper and asking the question, what is the concept they're exploring? And in that case the concept was care. All these different ways they were showing care in the food they prepared, how they laid it out, the rooms they created with the blocks, the nightlight, the reminding someone to brush their teeth, the creating the bed for the pet.
All the things were these aspects of care. And then they were also showing- How do they view [00:11:00] care in their world?
And so there's, say, almost like this societal piece-
Laura: Mm-hmm ... of
Cathy: in our culture, how is care demonstrated? And so they're showing what they know of care at that moment in their life.
Laura: Yeah.
Cathy: Mm-hmm.
Okay. There's also, I would say, art.
Visual art.
Laura: Mm-hmm.
Cathy: The painting, the mark making the story of take- when we can take the time and look at a finished piece, but also at the process of it. So let's take the finished piece, looking at it, and looking at the brushstrokes, and you can see how much pressure, how much paint.
What's the story of that child's experience with that material? Watching them in the process, same question. What is their experience in the process of making these marks? Are they surprised? What [00:12:00] are they repeating? Things like that. Then there's, with the art, then representation.
Are they representing something? Do they tell me, th- my scribble is my dad?
Laura: Mm-hmm.
Cathy: Or are they observing and doing an observational drawing? Then, that tells me the story of what are they paying attention to, and perhaps that's what's important to them.
Laura: Mm-hmm.
Cathy: And so the, those are some of the few few lenses that I look at around story.
Laura: That's really such a powerful way to think about it, and what kept coming to mind for me is how intentional you have to be to notice these things as stories, and how slow, how much we, as the adult around the children, have to really slow down while also reflecting. And I [00:13:00] think that's a really beautiful s- vignette that you shared about what at the surface could look like.
Role playing, exploring what different roles are within family or how they fit into that, or maybe even routines and rhythms that they're going through, and to be able to see from a, almost like this wider lens, right? That in fact what they're trying to make sense of or explore- is care and caring for one another and what that does and doesn't look like. That's-
Cathy: Mm-hmm ...
Laura: yeah it's really important to think about that. And of course I got some visuals in my mind as you were talking about visual art and thinking about how I've never so much, I've noticed, I can think about a child that loved mark-making with any type of tool, and would do this really strong deep pressure, like fast strokes, you know?
And was like always really excited by it, and that was just like their way of communicating. And it was, like, on library books or, on shaving cream [00:14:00] or anywhere. And that was just, I wonder now slowing down and thinking a little bit more what was, he maybe trying to communicate, through that mark-making?
I just, learned to identify it and know that was him. Or I could see that very, as you were describing the brush strokes and things, I could see that face coming to me. But I don't think I ever sat deeper with it to reflect on it. And I think reframing for ourselves that adults are more communication and meaning-making is- Mm-hmm
really important. And I think what the trap we often fall in, and even when we're speaking just about an oral story that a child has told- Mm-hmm ... even in their play, right? When they're they're role-playing something and we hear the story unfold, or that really clear moment where you're saying, "Hey, do you want to tell me a story?"
Or they're telling you a story about their day. We are so conditioned, I feel, to be looking for this beginning, middle, end, mm-hmm. And that's something that we ... I was teaching in kindergarten as a kindergarten [00:15:00] teacher. "Okay, you're gonna write a story," and "Here's three pieces of paper.
Map out your beginning, middle, and end," and most stories aren't actually like that. A really good story is circular or has, much more highs and lows, and not a clear beginning and end and middle. And I just feel like there's a, there's such contradictory things that start to happen, right?
Mm-hmm. In spaces where we're trying to just box a story into- Yeah ... this thing to fit, to teach children how to do beginning and middle and end, which ends up in a, a high school student writing a five-paragraph essay,
Cathy: yeah. Yeah. It becomes really reductive, right? Yes. And so then what does that mean about our experiences?
Are they also then reductive, mm-hmm. We're taught to just be on the surface and also to not talk about the messy stuff. 'Cause often the beginning, middle, and end, the end is happy. Mm-hmm. It has to end [00:16:00] happily. And so all these different ways to explore- Like you talk about exploring role-playing, right?
And so all these different ways of exploring perspective.
Laura: Mm-hmm.
Cathy: What's that look like through the lens of the mom, through the lens of the cat? And so that, I think, teaches an acceptance of diversity-
Laura: Mm-hmm ...
Cathy: and these different perspectives have value. I know from myself, one area that has been challenging was seeing children's conversation-
As story. Like sitting down in a group, like a- Yeah ... morning gathering. And holding a space where the children can actually lead the conversation and it's not being controlled by the adult. [00:17:00]
Laura: Yeah.
Cathy: And what is my tolerance for hearing children talk about their favorite stuffy or video games, and video games is a bit of a sensitive point for me, 'cause I have some bias around it.
Laura: Mm-hmm.
Cathy: And I found myself shutting that down.
Laura: Mm-hmm.
Cathy: But as I was watching the children it was a connection point with them. And so what might it look like if we can hold back and allow that conversation to continue?
And then our role is how do we help them keep the conversation going?
Laura: Mm-hmm.
Cathy: And maybe a lot of that is learning how to listen to each other. And so maybe that's the skill they need before they can fully have the conversation. So then what activities do we do or games we play that [00:18:00] helps them grow that skill so they're better able to communicate with each other and have those stories, or share those stories, have those conversations.
And again, with us being just on the sideline as the supporter as needed.
Laura: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. I think, you touched on this piece there around your tolerance for something and ... in so many ways we're talking about, children's agency and the, quote-unquote, power that we hold over children, right?
Because we can shut a story or conversation or activity down, right? We have that power over the children to say, "Yeah, this, game that you're playing-" Mm-hmm ... for whatever reason. I think rough-and-tumble play or weapon play, for a lot of adults that's "That play needs to stop," right? And that's due to our discomfort and our desire to just control the situation.
It feels a little too chaotic or unsafe or, whatever stories we're telling ourselves about it. And then [00:19:00] we just shut it down, right? Without actually peeling back and being able to see. And then we're removing, we're placing value on something else as- Mm-hmm ... as better play, right? As a better story.
And like you say, right? It's like hearing about, video games. You're like, "Eh, I don't really wanna hear about that. But oh, you wanna tell me about, this long, beautiful narrative about, the, your time with your grandma having a tea party." You're gonna soak it all in, right?
And so- Yeah ... how our definition of stories can limit what we value, plus our, our own need and desire for control, right? Yeah. We don't actually ... I find, sometimes people will be like, "Oh, I don't have any stories to tell to children," or "Children don't really tell stories," right?
But it's not in fact that there's this lack of stories. It's that you're not seeing them.
Cathy: Mm-hmm.
Laura: Yeah. You need to shift your lens.
Cathy: Yeah. It's what we think of as a story- Mm-hmm ... that maybe, often I feel we think it has to be some- [00:20:00] Really fantastic entertaining, all these things versus, oh, I, on my way here I saw, these big piles of snow, or I saw the icicle drip- dripping, or I saw the fall, the color of the fall leaves or whatever it is.
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Abar, think what you're naming and what w- we were talking about earlier is our adult perception of what is a story. Mm-hmm. That's the starting point. And so if we can, as educators have a mindset and open that up to beyond the picture book, the oral story, to some of these other ways of communicating-
Laura: Mm-hmm
Cathy: while at the same time, I think- educators, there can be fear around standards, of like I have to meet these standards so we don't have time to [00:21:00] hear this meandering story or, ooh, am I outside of the standards if I allow this to continue and different things like that. So educators, depending on the system they work within, can feel this incredible pressure.
And so they feel limited- Mm-hmm ... in their practice and what they can do. And so I think it's then- always think collaboration is a way out of that. 'Cause we tend to feel isolated- Mm-hmm ... when that's happening, or I have felt- Yeah ... very isolated when I'm feeling the pressure of standards or curriculum and I feel like I'm the only one struggling with this.
And then if I can come together with a couple people who we align in a lot of our values around children and learning-
Laura: Mm-hmm ...
Cathy: and the role of the educator, don't have to align on ev- align on everything, but enough that we can [00:22:00] dig deep into some things and then talk about what we're experiencing, what's working, what's not working, what do we think?
And not from a place of right, wrong, but-
Laura: Yeah ...
Cathy: from a place, and not even from a place to fix a problem, but more from a place of how do we understand what's happening? H- how do we understand what we're experiencing in each of our spaces? How can us telling stories and sharing our experiences together help us understand the bigger picture of what we're all in?
Laura: Mm-hmm.
Cathy: And then, playing around with w- how can we move forward? What's this showing us about the children, about ourselves, maybe about the system we're working within? And then thinking about how we wanna move forward with any of that. [00:23:00]
Laura: Yeah. It's, it is such a struggle, in so many ways.
I don't, I don't have a strong sense of what, the structures are like within Canada, but I imagine based on my, experiences with other people in our sphere, that there's a lot of the same challenges that we're experiencing of this k- top-down mandate, the kind of- Yeah
earlier, better, like everybody on the same page at the same time, and if you're using a box curriculum, doing it with fidelity and all these things, right? And- Yeah ... and it's stifling for everybody. Yeah. It's stifling for the adults and the educators that want to, listen to themselves or to the children, and stifling for the children, right?
And so I hear you saying, this, this- moment where, the educator feels that pull of before you know it, it's this morning meeting where you just thought you were gonna, introduce some little thing, and every child is now telling about their favorite stuffy and what color they are and where they're [00:24:00] sleeping.
And that desire to want to just rush through it or, end it or say, "Okay, we can only hear one more, and then we're gonna, come back to it," and you never come back to it. Mm-hmm.
Cathy: Mm-hmm.
Laura: Ab- absolutely. That kind of ... and makes me think about, like, when you were first talking about what constitutes a story and that necessity for us to just slow down- Mm-hmm
in so many aspects of it. And when we can slow down, I think what really you can do is see how that actually ties into whatever standards there are. Yes. Because 90% of the time, especially if you're in a early years or early learning space, there's a lot of standards on, self-regulation, cognitive development, and language, and all those things are at play in a s- kind of back and forth conversation.
You're waiting until the child, finishes talking about their purple stuffy, and then you're, making a personal connection that you have a [00:25:00] purple stuffy and, you're sharing about that and using different language and whatever it is, right? And really continuing to shift our lens of what- Yeah.
Cathy: Yeah ...
Laura: teaching and learning actually looks like.
Cathy: Yeah. I was thinking the same thing, that working backwards of seeing, like, where does this conversation go, and then looking at the standards- Yeah ... or curriculum, and what is just being satisfied here.
Laura: Mm-hmm.
Cathy: And then how do I help the children extend that?
Laura: Mm-hmm.
Cathy: Where can it go next? How can they go deeper with whatever it is they're exploring?
Laura: Yeah. Absolutely. So what I heard you saying earlier was this idea of stories can be for children what constitutes a story. Yeah. If we're thinking about in a space where children, let's say in the, ideal world, they're engaged in child-led free play, and there's some adult-directed time, and there's a lot [00:26:00] of time outside in nature and stuff.
So there's, dramatic play, that kind of fantasy role playing, which is this narrative development, right? We can really clearly see that. And this idea of conversations and having these conversations is s- story building, right? And it's insight into individual children and who they are, right?
And- Their identity, their family, their culture, 'cause a lot of time children are talking about the here and now or the just here and just now- Mm-hmm ... what just happened. Yeah.
Cathy: Yeah.
Laura: And then I'm... I'd love to hear a bit more about this idea of art and storytelling because, in my mind when I think of you, I think a lot of visual arts and things.
And I can easily draw a connection between maybe if I'm giving a child a camera and they're taking some photographs, right? And piecing together what that story may be that they're trying to share. But I think it's a little bit harder for me to wrap around my head around this idea of a child's art as storytelling.
You wanna share a little bit more about that?
Cathy: Yeah, [00:27:00] sure. Let me think about this for a moment. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, it's a good, it's a good question. Yeah, I'm thinking there's so many layers of the stories, what's making me pause. Mm-hmm. So I think of it what's the story of their growth and development?
Of how is... I think of one child in particular, a three-year-old who I'm seeing this year. They're actually back in some of my programs as, of course, a four-year-old.
Laura: Mm-hmm.
Cathy: And, last year their fine motor development wasn't as developed as it is now, and thinking of that story over time of that development of fine motor.
And if I think about last year, the story of how they managed as they were developing, so the two hands on the paintbrush- ... pressing really hard. The sensory exploration of using watercolor paint and adding more and more water, [00:28:00] abandoning the brush and using their hands, and reflecting on, what is the story that they're telling?
And not trying to limit it, and that's, I think, where when we can really value the process and that engagement and not the final product.
Laura: Mm-hmm.
Cathy: And so for me, that was a learning of setting my expectations to the side of, oh, we'll do this, and we'll bring in these materials and, the watercolor paper and the watercolor paint, and we'll do syringes or brushes or...
And then having them abandon those tools and just be in there with their hands, and how well then can I embrace that sensory experience that they're seeking, that direct embodiment relationship with the paint-
Laura: [00:29:00] Mm-hmm ...
Cathy: versus me controlling that. And then what do I do next? Mm-hmm. And how long do I let them repeat that process?
How do I scaffold them to the next level if they're- ... if I perceive they're ready?
Laura: Mm-hmm.
Cathy: Those are all stories to me. And then, Watching this same child this year, of course, being much more precise in their brush strokes. And I found myself thinking, "Oh, they're being much more intentional."
But then I had to stop. Why did I think that? Intentional because of the, they had control over the marks they were making versus last year when they didn't have as much control.
As I thought about it and I revisited some of the photos and video, the intentionality was there as well. It's always
Laura: there.
Cathy: Mm-hmm. It's always- Yeah ... there.
Laura: Yeah.
Cathy: They're always seeking and [00:30:00] playing and exploring and discovering.
Laura: Mm-hmm.
Cathy: And can we make space for that- Mm-hmm ... I guess is what I think. Or, paint is where I've spent a lot of time, but I think of the other arts like movement, dance or another visual art, clay.
Laura: Yeah.
Cathy: What's the story with clay? Or, any of the visual arts materials. And so then thinking of the material as alive.
Laura: Yeah.
Cathy: And it
Laura: has a pers- What that just made me think of was just even, 3D constructions with loose parts, right? Mm-hmm. And how a child's, first interactions with loose parts can change and grow so much as they become more familiar with it or take more risks.
And it might go from a really simple repeating pattern to, a really complex, creation or intentional use [00:31:00] of, when they're in some other play schema or doing something completely different and then are like, "Oh, I'm gonna go get these to make the thing that I need to be for this."
Cathy: Yeah.
Laura: Yeah, that-
Cathy: Yeah ...
Laura: that visual just came to my mind as you were describing.
Cathy: Yeah.
Laura: Mm-hmm.
Cathy: And I've started thinking of all these materials- Mm-hmm ... whether it's art materials or loose parts, all these materials have a personality.
And so it's like making a friend. So when I first play with you, I get to know you on this kind of level, and the more I play with you the more I get to know you.
I get to understand all the nuances about your personality.
So in terms of the materials, then I'm gonna use you in a different way. But also, the material is speaking back. When I stack up the blocks really high and they fall over, that's communication.
Laura: Yeah. It's,
Cathy: Part of the friendship, part of the reciprocity that's going on.
When I, Sta- think of an, a [00:32:00] art example. When I-
Laura: wire
Cathy: Yes. Mm-hmm When I bend the wire in a certain way- Mm-hmm ... it's responding back. If I put the paint on in a certain way, it's responding back. Mm-hmm.
Laura: Mm-hmm ...
Cathy: with the school-age children, we did a really cool exploration with watercolor paint, and it started off more by, through an exploration of water.
So just putting droplets of water on watercolor paper and looking at it and noticing what that ha- what is happening, and then adding some pigment and noticing that, but keeping it more oriented around the water than the actual paint, and then what happens when it dries- ... what's left. And so ki- a slightly different perspective into it and just seeing how that understanding of water and the [00:33:00] movement of water, 'cause it sometimes moved in very surprising ways, and, through the exploration of water and then adding the pigment, having the children discover for themselves that if I, do a brush stroke of water and then I put a lot of watercolor pigment on there, it tends not to move outside of the original mark.
Laura: Mm-hmm.
Cathy: And so discovering that and then- That's part of their relationship with the paint. Yep. And so getting to those nuanced places where then the children are deciding how then I understand this friend, watercolor paint, how do, how am I gonna use it to communicate a story or a thought or a [00:34:00] random
What they would say, "I'm just gonna do a random abstract."
And so as they're working through their process, oftentimes I've noticed there's a story that starts to emerge because these different shapes remind them to, of something. They connect to something, and so then they start unfolding this story.
And it can change.
Laura: Mm-hmm.
Cathy: And I think that's another piece as adults of being okay with these ev- evolving stories.
Laura: Yeah.
Cathy: That what it started out to be is a sunset, now it's fish jumping out of the water or whatever it is. Yeah. So that openness.
Laura: Mm-hmm. And- Absolutely.
Cathy: Mm-hmm.
Laura: That's a really interesting way to think about it.
What literally just came to mind is I love watercolor, but don't, I wouldn't ... I'd say we're still n- new friends. I do not have the nuances of it. I'm like, oh, I need to go try this with the water and the color and see how it stays in there. But what I find I default to is just [00:35:00] making some simple shapes or gradients or just something that I feel really safe with.
Mm-hmm. And then revisiting that same piece of work. And what I had started as just some triangles, and I was just repeating that because it felt calm and soothing and it was speaking to me. And then when I went back to it and there was white space in between the triangles, I was like, oh, this reminds me of stained glass.
Cathy: Mm-hmm.
Laura: And then I lined it with black paint pen, and then it really spoke to me like that. And then I just found myself putting a phrase on it, and it felt like this just bold statement. But none of that was part of the story when it started, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. And I couldn't have guessed where it would go at the end.
I think that's a really thinking about h- children having the opportunity to engage in that and how powerful it is, and to be seen-
Cathy: Yeah ...
Laura: for what it is. And I think that's a really beautiful way to support some educators that are just still not on- board with process art. Yeah. But they need to experience it themselves [00:36:00] to really understand the value of it, and that even the product isn't the end result, right?
And- Yeah ... and this idea as well art can be unfinished, as can stories, right? Yeah. Stories can just stay, you know- Yes ... they may just be. They, whatever it may be. Yes ... so we've touched on it a little bit, and it- and I'm curious if you have any other advice around this idea of our role, right?
It sounds like really observing, right? Observing. But what other kind of conditions or space can we do to support, learners in sharing their stories in whatever their environments might be?
Cathy: I think a lot of it is trying to see through the eyes of the children. Like, how are they seeing this particular situation, or how are they seeing the world, and seeing it from their perspective versus an adult perspective?
I [00:37:00] think it's also trusting them. I think we touched on this just a f- minute or so ago around, children are always learning. They're curious. They're exploring. They are making meaning all the time, and for us to trust that. I think you also mentioned something earlier, and it's come up a few times, valuing.
Mm-hmm. Valuing what children say or the ways they communicate. And, Time
Being, and that may be one of the hardest ones, is creating time.
Laura: Yeah.
Cathy: And maybe it's not necessarily physical, super expansive time, but flow. How do, how as an educator can I create flow?
What are the children interested in?
How do I help them explore that interest more deeply? [00:38:00] Is it creating flow? Or when there's a disruption in flow, w- what is that about? Is it about a lack of skill? I think of play and there's play cues- ... that we send each other. And so is someone missing a play cue? Mm-hmm.
Is someone unable to initiate a cue? Then how, what do, what's my role then- Mm-hmm ... to help them gain that skill that's missing, that's disrupting the flow that they're, they've been in to whatever point and are seeking to continue?
Laura: I l- I think that's a really powerful way to think about it, this idea that being in the flow is like where we want everybody. And that idea of giving them time, right? And also time for ourselves to constantly- Yeah ... be gentle and remind ourselves, especially if this is a new way of thinking, right?
And a [00:39:00] new mindset shift to go from thinking of stories as just words on a page or words that children are sharing in a once upon a time way. Allowing ourselves to see stories in art, to see stories in conversations, giving time to just observe. In, in our conversation of there were a few moments where different kids engaging in repetitive play and different play schemas was coming to mind.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I think that's a really important piece of things for especially younger children that are in those developmental spaces of working through the different schemas and allowing children the time. And like you said, that moment of, recognizing our own biases. Like thinking that when they weren't- Mm-hmm
making that intentional pen stroke, that hand movements weren't intentional when we know they were very intentional, mm-hmm. Because those were kept to the paper. They weren't, on the walls and running around, which may have been intentional as well. But there's cues that we can notice that let us know that they are in [00:40:00] fact being intentional all the way, you know-
Cathy: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm ...
Laura: around and noticing those small moments as the stories. And I think something I'd love to end on is I- do you in some ways share these stories back with children?
Cathy: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Laura: Yeah. Yeah.
Cathy: Yes.
Laura: What does that look like?
Cathy: Varying. Yeah. Somet- 'cause the programs I run, it's once a week.
Laura: Yeah.
Cathy: So there's a big gap, so sometimes they don't even remember.
Laura: Mm-hmm.
Cathy: And so it's like reconnecting with the images- Yeah ... and the video. And, my experience with it is sometimes that it's a completely different story than what they may have said earlier. Sometimes it's a continuation. Like last week I was- I had set up an invitation for children with some shapes.
I thought, "Oh, can we have some organic shapes?" Stepping away from geometric [00:41:00] shape and using organic shapes and also having scissors and paper available so children can make their own shapes, and then what might emerge from that?
Laura: Mm-hmm.
Cathy: What kind of stories might emerge?
Laura: Mm-hmm.
Cathy: And so it was also scissor skills.
So there was, s- one child, that's what it was about. Yeah. Just cutting. Holding in different ways, cutting. So there's that story. Then there was, others that were cutting and sometimes tearing- ... and having very definite stories dictated by the shape that ended up getting, being created.
And then last week when I saved all the shapes and I pulled out some of the ones we had spoken about and they had talked about with me and told me what they were. And so I brought those out and just had them re- put them on black felt. [00:42:00] And they told me the exact same That is the tree. That is the snake.
Mm-hmm. That's the ball.
Laura: Mm-hmm.
Cathy: That's a person's foot.
So it's like they had remembered everything from the previous time. So that openness we have to go with what they're saying and how much information that gives us and the letting go of- Oftentimes it's the unlearning of how we've been trained as educators.
And that we hold the information-
Laura: Yeah ...
Cathy: and are guiding, and to have more openness. And knowing the times where we do have information and when do we need to give it.
Laura: Yeah.
Cathy: But the other thing I wanted to say was also giving ourselves grace as educators, 'cause we're not going to be able to see every moment.
We're not going to interpret [00:43:00] everything correctly. We're gonna mess up, and that's okay.
Laura: Mm-hmm.
Cathy: That it's all learning.
Laura: Mm-hmm,
Cathy: mm-hmm. It's all part of the bigger story of how do we live well together.
Laura: Mm-hmm.
Cathy: It's not this perfect scenario, so how do we move through sometimes tensions,
Laura: Yeah, absolutely
mm-hmm. I think holding onto the idea that just trying something new, whether it be the different way to view something or slowing down or whatever piece it may be. And then I always had to remind myself, because I always loved documentation and sharing documentation back with children, and y- the reality is when you have 22 kids you can't do it in a really meaningful, deep, authentic way for every interest that's popping up or every really phenomenal, developmental story that's happening.
And I had to learn to give myself permission to just- Mm-hmm ... [00:44:00] follow two kids that were coming back to the same story in the same center, in the same space over and over, and capture that over time. And that, yeah, maybe that was the only thing that was, being shared out in this way, in this really deep way, and that was okay.
Yeah. Because the reality was I was doing the that more justice than I could to try to pick up on the stories of every single child in every, different way. And so I think that's really really helpful to remember to give ourselves- Mm-hmm ... grace and just to try to start seeing maybe one, one space that they're playing in a little bit differently and how can you shift your lens of thinking as a story or one child, how can you better understand what it is they're trying to communicate through whatever it may be that they're interested or doing.
Yeah ... that would be a great starting place. Yeah.
Cathy: Mm-hmm.
Laura: Beautiful. Are there any last thoughts you wanna leave us with? And let us know how to find you and where people can learn more [00:45:00] about you and the work that you're doing.
Cathy: Mm-hmm. Yes. So yes, people can find me on Instagram. I'm quite active there.
You can find me at TheIntentionalEducator_YVR.
And then also my website, theintentionaleducator.ca. And so there's lots of free resources there. You can... There's a newsletter people can sign up for if they want, or email me. All kinds of different ways they can reach me. Mm-hmm.
Laura: Perfect, and I'll have those in the show notes. And where... In Canada, if anybody happens to be listening and wants to join some of these cool classes that you offer, where are you located?
Cathy: I'm in Vancouver, British Columbia.
Laura: Mm-hmm. Okay.
Cathy: All
Laura: right.
Cathy: Mm-hmm.
Laura: Cool. My plan is one day... of all the countries that I've been to, which is many, I still have not yet to be to Canada, and that's like- Oh. That's gonna be next on my list. I feel like it's it's coming. It's a long time coming now, thanks so much for [00:46:00] coming on and chatting with me. I am thinking a lot now, and I'm interested to get back around children and see their art a little differently and how it looks like a story. So I really appreciate you sharing your perspective with us.
Cathy: Thanks so much for having me and this wonderful conversation.
Speaker 2: The end. But really, that's it for today's episode of Stories That Stick, inspiring and captivating minds young and old. Remember, stories have the incredible ability to spark conversations, ignite imagination, and create lasting connections. If you loved what you heard, be sure to subscribe to the podcast and leave a five-star review.
It really does make a difference. And if you have a story to share or a topic you want me to explore, reach out to me on Instagram at @littlestoriesthatstick. Until next time, keep working that storytelling muscle and tell stories every day
